††††††††††††† Charles Peck†††††††††††† 500 Tournament Trail
††††††††††††† Martha Karchut††††††††† 4204 N Park Ave
††††††††††††† Steve Karchut†††††††††† 4204 N Park Ave
††††††††††††† Bobbie Darnhonier†††††† 240 Glendola Ave
†††††† †††††† Paula McCormick†††††††† 1231 Ward NW
Scott Daffron:† Today is
ROLL CALL:† Bill Sasse, here; Scott Rowley, here; Scott Daffron, here; Jim Chubb, here.
Bill Sasse made a motion for approval of minutes, seconded by Scott Rowley ROLL CALL:† Jim Chubb, yes; Scott Rowley, yes; Bill Sasse, yes; Scott Daffron, yes.† MOTION APPROVED.
Bill Sasse made a motion for approval of 01-10A, seconded by Jim Chubb.
Scott Daffron:† Who do we have to speak on behalf of this tonight?
Martha Karchut:† We built the building in 1983 and sold it in 1987 and weíre buying it back now.† And weíd like to bring our business, the original Chicken Coop back into it.
Bill Sasse:† Theyíll need a Knox box?
Chief Bill Novakovich: That would be correct.† At this pointÖIím Bill Novakovich, Fire Chief City of Cortland.
Martha Karchut: Hi.
Chief Bill Novakovich: Pleasure.† Have not heard from you yet as far as an initial inspection or anything about the Knox box.
Steve Karchut:† Weíre not ready yet.† We have to put better exhaust system on the roof, and itís hard to work up there right now.† So possibly tomorrow or the day after, weíll be in there to get that and weíll give you a call for an inspection.
Chief Bill Novakovich: Okay.† Are you familiar with the Knox box?† There should have been literature in your initial packet that was picked up as far as a new business goes?
Steve Karchut: Yes.
Chief Bill Novakovich:† Iím assuming your intention on that is to go through with it?
Steve Karchut:† Yeah, in fact Iíll get it together and drop it off, where would I drop it off at?
Chief Bill Novakovich:† Actually, I can get you the order form but it does not go through us, it goes through the Knox Company.
Steve Karchut:† Oh, okay.
Martha Karchut:† Is there a time limit on this?
Chief Bill Novakovich:† Actually they are supposed to be taken care of with the new business, but as long as we see itís in the process, I donít have an issue with it.
Steve Karchut: Okay.
Martha Karchut: Thank you.
Chief Bill Novakovich: I would assume that you are going to be there some time tomorrow I can get that particular order form to you.
Martha Karchut: Oh yeah.
Steve Karchut:† If youíll give me a time youíll be available over there Iíll be sure Iím there.
Chief Bill Novakovich: It can be around your schedule.† Weíre at the station 24x7.†
Steve Karchut: Okay.
Chief Bill Novakovich:† Give me sometime between 8 and 4 tomorrow.
Steve Karchut:† .
Chief Bill Novakovich:† Okay, very good.
Steve Karchut:† Iíll be there.
Chief Bill Novakovich:† Yeah, the County will do your occupancy, they will do actually, they will do your electrical and so on.† Once your new system gets in there, is it just a ventilation system or is it an Ancel system also?
Steve Karchut:† Ventilation and Ancel, both.
Chief Bill Novakovich: Okay, once that new system gets put in there, they will probably call us up to see the testing of it as well.
Steve Karchut: Yeah.
Bill Sasse:† Will I need to amend my approval of this on contingency of the Knox box and approval from the Fire Department?
Mayor Moll:† No, itís implied.
Scott Daffron:† Just one question we have now on your building weíre showing the front of the building basically blocked off for parking.† Have you discussed parking with them?† Has this been discussed or this is just how they presented it?
Scott Daffron:† My real question is, is..i mean thatís I think weíd all be in favor of not parking there, but how will you leave that so that it doesnít become a parking area?
Martha Karchut:† No parking signs on the front and the fire lane behind the building where the house is right there, I understand that is a fire lane there and we would have to have no parking there, fire lane also.
Steve Karchut:† I have over 15 parking spaces, but I can have more than that, but I canít get anything set up right now.† Iím just going by what they had before.
Jim Chubb:† I think what you have on the sides and everything are more than adequate.
Steve Karchut:† Yes, it was before, yes.
Jim Chubb:† Thereís no problem there and I really do like the idea of no parking in the front.
Martha Karchut:† Well the sidewalk is there.
Scott Daffron:† Yeah and people would park across the sidewalk and then back out onto the road before.
Martha Karchut:† Well we just wonít allow that.
Martha Karchut: Yes.
Martha Karchut:† As soon as spring rolls around and the snow melts weíre going to have lines drawn in there.
Mayor Moll: We assume when we put a sidewalk in front of that other restaurant that theyíll pursue it then.† Itís hard to enforce now.
Martha Karchut:† Well they wonít do it at the Chicken Coop.
Scott Daffron: At this point do we have any other questions?† Don everything was good with you?
Scott Daffron:† Seeing no other questions, Don, can we have a vote on 01-10A?
ROLL CALL:† Scott Rowley, yes; Bill Sasse, yes; Jim Chubb, yes; Scott Daffron, yes.† MOTION APPROVED.
Scott Daffron:† That approves the business portion.† Now, can I have a motion for approval of
01-10B Ė Sign Ė Chicken Coop Ė
Jim Chubb made a motion for approval of 01-10B, seconded by Bill Sasse.
Scott Daffron:† Again, who do we have to speak on the sign tonight?
Martha Karchut:† My husband.
Steve Karchut: We have a chicken logo and weíre taking the top part off thatís there now.† The sign that we have there now, weíre just taking the top off and replacing it with a chicken.
Scott Daffron: Do you know what the total height of that sign would then be?
Steve Karchut:† It will be maybe just about 2í higher than it is right now.† Maybe not.
I left a message with
Mayor Moll:† Whatís our limit? 16?
Scott Daffron:† 12í isnít it?
Don Wittman: I think 14í.
Jim Chubb:† Weíll according to this its 6íx5í.
(Multiple people talking)
Steve Karchut:† Yes, the head of the chicken is 6í and the tail is probably 5í and then its 5í across.
Martha Karchut:† So are you recommending that we take that changeable sign down?
Martha Karchut: So it looks like that letter sign is coming down.
(Multiple people talking)
Bill Sasse:† 12í for one person.
Scott Daffron:† Thatís what I thought.† I mean the philosophy, what you see most of the newer signs are all lower.† Actually most of them are now monument signs, where they are on the ground.
Martha Karchut:† Would it be a problem if we brought the sign lower, everything lower to ground?
Scott Daffron: No.
Bill Sasse: No.
Jim Chubb:† Oh no.
Martha Karchut:† And keep the letter sign, the whole pole coming down?
Jim Chubb: No problem at all.
Martha Karchut:† And then we would keep the letter thing?
Bill Sasse:† Weíve had people do that.
Jim Chubb: As long as you keep the top distance.
Martha Karchut:† Weíll whatís the problem with that?
Steve Karchut:† Weíll meet the top 14í distance.† Is it 12í or 14í?
Scott Daffron:† Its 12í.
Jim Chubb: 2 signs is 14í.
Bill Sasse:† It would be 14í for these two signs here.
Scott Daffron:† No, thatís for 2 businesses.
Bill Sasse:† So it would be 12í?
Scott Daffron:† Yeah.
(Multiple people talking)
Martha Karchut:† So we can drop the whole pole then?
Steve Karchut:† As long as itís not over 12í.
Scott Daffron:† Honestly I think as you drive down the road you donít have to move your eyes up.
Martha Karchut:† Right.
Scott Daffron:† It shows better to people as they drive down the road.
Mayor Moll:† I still have a question about the changeable letter sign, whether that would make itÖ
Martha Karchut:† I understand that.
Scott Daffron:† Do you plan on using both?
Martha Karchut: Well that was my question; I thought if we dropped the sign down we would be able to keep the lettering thatís on the pole.
Don Wittman: Well itís the 32 sq. ft. requirement.
Martha Karchut:† Itís the square footage the problem is?
Don Wittman: Yeah.
Mayor Moll:† Youíre about there with the chicken.
Bill Sasse:† Can you make the chicken smaller?
Martha Karchut:† No it would be better for us to take the letters away.
Mayor Moll:† I agree with you I think if you change the letter sign its okay but that same thing was up there for a long, long time.
Don Wittman:† The other thing that we have available is the temporary signs while the business is open.† So if you wanted to do a daily special, you could put a 6 sq. ft. bi-fold sign out by the sidewalk.
Martha Karchut:† A non-lit one?
Don Wittman: Non-lit and when youíre closed it goes inside.
Martha Karchut:† A portable one?
Don Wittman:† A portable sandwich board style sign.
Steve Karchut: No, we donít do that.
Martha Karchut:† Well thatís a very good idea though.
Scott Daffron:† What Don is basically saying, you can put out a daily advertising sign.
Audience Member:† But it would have to go in at night?
Bill Sasse:† Yes.
Martha Karchut:† (inaudible) or something just fold up and take in.
Scott Daffron:† Right.
Martha Karchut:† I was confused on the signs still yet, are we saying that the letters come down even though we meet the 12í standard?
Don Wittman: Yes.
Martha Karchut: The letters on the pole still have to come off?
Don Wittman:† Yes.
Martha Karchut:† Okay.
Mayor Moll:† To meet the new sign ordinance.
Martha Karchut:† Okay.
Mayor Moll: Otherwise you could come back for a variance.
Martha Karchut:† No, weíll just do it this way.
Don Wittman: You could, I donít know how the board would look at that, but you could have the variance and you could also hold off and you could put up a temporary sign like a bag over that top sign, until everything got worked out and you got your final sign approval.† Or if you want to talk to Signs by George to seeÖ
Martha Karchut: Heís the one that made the bird.
Don Wittman:† Okay.† He did our sign out front, by the way.† If he knows that its 12í, 32 sq. ft. maximum area, then that would be sufficient.
Jim Chubb:† The question that she asked about whether the pole sign had to be emptied every night?
Bill Sasse: No.
Martha Karchut:† No, the little one.
Jim Chubb:† Oh, I thought we had addressed that question.
Mayor Moll: No.† If you put out a sandwich board sign, or something like one of those v-shaped signs it has to come back in nightly.
Scott Daffron: Just to add something to the thought process, if you want to even, if the chicken was mounted to the roof, you could still have an option for your changeable letter sign.† Weíre simply talking about the size of the sign.
Martha Karchut:† Okay, question now, are you talking about we could take that chicken and mount it to the corner of our roof?
Scott Daffron:† Itís true; it could be mounted on the face of the building.† It would be more of aÖ
Mayor Moll: It wouldnít show.
Scott Daffron: Yeah, thatís the thing.† Iím just saying just because you have that changeable letter sign out there now.
Martha Karchut:† Well I would rather go the direction of putting the bird up on opening and taking the letters down, and go for the variance come March and maybe able to add the little letters up there as the people go up and down High Street, they see as their coming or going the specials that we may have.
Scott Daffron:† Right and you can do that on a variance.
Martha Karchut:† But I would want the bird up there first because I think thatís whatís mostly known, than just some words.
Don Wittman:† So we have this all figured out then on how you need to comply?
Martha Karchut: I think.
Scott Daffron: Even, you know Don would be more than happy before everything is finalized just take a look at it and make sure that everything does comply.
Martha Karchut:† Thatís fine.
Mayor Moll:† Yeah, George calls Don all the time.
Scott Daffron:† Well you hate to see them go through the steps and Ö
Martha Karchut: Okay.
Scott Daffron:† I assume itís lighted?
Martha Karchut: Yes itís lit.
Scott Daffron:† Itís under 12í high and we know that the square footage of the face of the sign is under 30í so that would put it within our ordinance.
Scott Daffron:† Okay, with those revisions made, do you feel confident we can vote on this?
Bill Sasse: Yeah.
Scott Daffron: Can we have a vote?
ROLL CALL:† Scott Daffron, yes; Scott Rowley, yes; James Chubb, yes; Bill Sasse, yes. MOTION APPROVED.
Scott Daffron: That approves your modified sign.† We had one item; I donít know if we wanted to do it on the agenda or off?† The discussion on the sign ordinance?
Don Wittman: †I guess in reviewing some of Charlieís complaints about billboards and leaf removal, and lawn care, and home improvement signs that remain at houses after the work has been completed.† Under the old sign code we had a provision thatís circled, however we did not carry that over into the new sign ordinance for the temporary signs.† Not a big deal, but just an oversight, just bringing it to this boardís attention.† I donít think it necessitates revising the sign ordinance, once again.† However, it would probably be something we would want to keep in the back of our minds, when we do have any changes, to incorporate that.† Because essentially thereís no offsite advertising and if youíre only allowed to have it for 5 days and it continues to be there for 5 days, then I issue them an order to remove it anyways.† So itís not like we have the ability to expressly permit it, we just have to have the ability to get rid of it if it becomes a complaint.
Mayor Moll:† We canít write tickets for them.
Charlie Peck: 500 Tournament Trail.† Do we still not have the ability to ask to have them remove that based on the fact thatís its off premise, you know temporary off premise advertising?
Don Wittman: Weíre not talking about a
Charlie Peck:† No
Don Wittman:† Weíre
talking about a Learning Friends sign in the right of way in
Charlie Peck: Iím talking about anybody that leaves these signs up. You know construction company that leaves them up past the 5 days.† You can say hey thatís off premise advertising.† I mean you have the teeth you need.
Don Wittman:† Are you talking about in someoneís yard or in the right-of-way?
Charlie Peck:† Okay, well,
Bill Sasse:† Anywhere.
Jim Chubb:† Thereís a ton of them in right-of-way.
Bill Sasse:† Thereís a ton of them in the yards.
Jim Chubb:† 5í behind the curb but itís still in the right-of-way.
Bill Sasse: Yeah.
Charlie Peck: I see what Donís saying, we do really have two different things.
Don Wittman:† But is it the homeowner putting the sign up or is it the business guy going down a busy road and putting them where vehicles can see them.
Bill Sasse:† Canít we say both of them?
Jim Chubb:† Iím thinking about I just changed my roof so I know to put his sign out for 5 days, after heís finished with my roof.
Don Wittman: And thatís apparent, thatís not an issue.† The issue we have is the snow plowing signs, leaf removal signs, the octagon signs that show up on the corner at Huntington Bank, Fowler, any where and every where.†
Scott Rowley: How about under prohibited signs, off premise signs unless otherwise permitted by this code.† Does that not take this into consideration?
Don Wittman: Well and I thought this would have, yeah, but see, this doesnít permit them for 5 days, so.† It come to if itís in the right-of-way, Iím not going to go ask the business if someone, if their displaying that for someone, weíll just take them out of the right-of-way.
Bill Sasse:† Well what
about the one like on Russell that Cortland Lanes, open 7 days a week.† I called
Don Wittman: Those would be illegal, those would be off site.
Bill Sasse: Then what about Learning Friends.
Don Wittman:† Those we discussed with them as well and they keep coming back.
Bill Sasse:† Donít we have something, Patrick, do we have something in the works that we can do something about that.
Patrick Wilson: Thereís nothing in the works.† Thereís nothing filed, thereís nothing in court.
Don Wittman:† I mean I canít trespass onto someoneís property and pull the sign out.
Bill Sasse:† So we send them a letter saying please take down your sign.
Don Wittman:† And if they donít then I go down to Central District Court and file a zoning violation.
Mayor Moll: By the time that gets through the sign has deteriorated to a point where you canít see it anymore.
Atty. Patrick Wilson:† But thatís the best youíve got Bill, because you donít want to pay me to do it.
Bill Sasse: So weíre stuck with it.
Mayor Moll:† Kind of.
Scott Daffron: Most of them, Iíve seen, like the bowling signs they were all set back in.
Bill Sasse:† Well yeah, but thereís one right down the street from the park, right where I live, Cortland Lanes, open 7 days a week.
Mayor Moll:† Is it in the right-of-way.
Bill Sasse: No, itís in the guyís yard though.
Don Wittman:† Got us talking about it did its purpose.† Do you want to chase these businesses out of town?† Do you want to have more vacant store fronts?
Bill Sasse:† Okay, so say we have 400 or 500 companies that put those signs in yards.
Mayor Moll:† Then weíll deal with it at that point.† Right now we donít have any companies.
Mayor Moll:† Thatís one.
Bill Sasse: Learning Friends is a company.
Mayor Moll:† Not exactly.
Charlie Peck:† How
about if we shift gears slightly to those entities that are outside of
Mayor Moll: Weíll send them a copy of our ordinances.
Charlie Peck:† But you know like this Lees Appliances I donít feel we owe them any advertising space, I mean theyíre at the Center of the World for crying out loud.
Don Wittman:† In which case those were removed right away and taken out.† The Octagon signs that were handmade, that we removed, he put them out on a Friday and removed them on Sunday.† Curt sent a letter to them basically saying you canít do it anymore, or a copy of the sign ordinance.† We had that discussion. Next time it happens, next year, itís going in the dumpster.
Charlie Peck:† Weíll be a little less gentle about removing them maybe?
Don Wittman:† Exactly.
Charlie Peck:† And
looking forward to the spring, people get way carried away with garage sale
signs.† I look at the corner of Fowler
Don Wittman:† And garage sale signs are exempt from the sign ordinance.
Charlie Peck:† How many garage sale signs are you allowed to have?
Bill Sasse:† Two.
Charlie Peck:† One at the garage sale site and one at the road to get you there.† Not one leading you there turn by turn.† That nice little sign area down by Huntington Bank gets junked up by garage sale signs.
Bill Sasse:† Can I change the subject?† The judgeís wife cornered me about that garage across the street from her house.† The one with the roof falling in, right up here.
Scott Daffron:† Yeah, itís only got probably 2 more months then it will be gone.
Bill Sasse:† So it will be gone?
Scott Daffron: Itís going to cave in.
Charlie Peck: Isnít the right answer that they have to submit a complaint in writing to the Service Director before action proceeds any further?
Atty. Patrick Wilson:† Yeah, have her call city hall.
Don Wittman:† No, itís not a call, written complaint.† It can be anonymous, specifying the address, nature of the complaint, detailed enough so we can start an investigation.
Atty. Patrick Wilson: But if you call city hall, they will tell you too.
Charlie Peck:† But I mean the proper action is if itís important enough you know for you to complain about, itís important to jot it down in writing and submit it.
Jim Chubb:† I had a call the other day the plow destroyed a curb and I told them to call City Hall.
Mayor Moll: Well curbs are ours, and weíll fix them.
Jim Chubb:† Thatís what I told her I said theyíre not going to do anything until the spring because you canít fix them right now.
Don Wittman:† I guess
only one other issue that I have is
Jim Chubb:† Thereís no violation in what they want to put up.
Don Wittman: Itís an electronic board.† Itís a sign that can be changed by electronic means.† Even though itís not a variable message board within the context of how we define it, itís still an electronic sign, which is expressly prohibited.† So they will be applying for a variance, at which point we will probably still have them apply for a multiple sign variance as well as a height variance.† Theyíre concerned bringing it down, and I second that, you look at the (inaudible) around those signs, theyíre bent to hell.† Even the day he went to take pictures, there was broken taillights every where.† And thatís another one of his concerns is someone getting backed into when theyíre trying to change the gas prices.† Iím just relaying this message, this is not up for discussion.† Iím just telling you whatís going to be coming in, weíll have enough time to discuss it.†
Scott Daffron: Well we know itís been coming for a year.
Charlie Peck:† Again, is that not letting the camels nose get under the tent?
Mayor Moll:† No, absolutely not.
Charlie Peck:† How are we going to say, okay, first place bank says well we want to do this, but weíre only going to change our message as many times as
Don Wittman:† Once every six days?† Thatís what he said.
Bill Sasse:† Don, can I ask why they just canít go to the ones that change from inside automatically that still have numbers on them.† Theyíre not electronic.† Thereís plenty of different ones out there.
Scott Daffron:† Yeah, but thatís old technology.
Bill Sasse:† No itís new technology.† Iíll get some pictures of a few of them that just went up.
Scott Daffron:† They do make the LEDís.
Don Wittman:† And the whole thing is this is a, it can be dimmed at night.
Mayor Moll:† Can they do white on black?
Don Wittman:† I think itís a standard in the industry, where red is gas and green is diesel.
Charlie Peck: And orange is cigarettes or something.† Is this going to look like the sign that they have on their gas station in Champion?
Don Wittman: I donít know.
Scott Daffron:† This is smaller.
Mayor Moll:† But basically the same.
Scott Daffron:† Basically the same.† They have diesel over there so they do have green, they have red, and they have cigarettes.
Bill Sasse:† What does BP got on theirs?† Take a look at BPís.† I donít think they have electronic but they change it from inside.† Take a look at it.† Letís take a look at BPís.
Charlie Peck:† Whatís their objective?
Don Wittman:† Well theyíre going to ask for a variance for the electronic sign, at which point theyíll ask for a variance for the height requirements.† Because right now you get a truck coming through, he basically said they canít lower them because the way the trucks go, if thatís four feet tall, and weíre going 12, youíre only looking at an 8í clearance from the ground to the bottom of the sign and thatís going to get clipped by a truck.
Mayor Moll:† Yeah, theyíve got to be at least as high as their roof structure, otherwise if they limit the height that will be coming through their roof.
Jim Chubb:† Thatís true.† 8íÖ
Mayor Moll:† Isnít high enough.
Jim Chubb:† Yeah.† Thereís dump trucks coming in there and thereís all kinds of things coming in there.
Don Wittman:† I mean weíre already lookingÖ
Scott Daffron: I mean my gut feeling as much as I hate it, my gut feeling is to allow gas signs.
Jim Chubb: I agree.
Scott Daffron: But a cigarette sign is not a gas sign.† If you just exempt, I know, Iím just re-iterating, it was Curtís idea.† Just exempt the gas.
Mayor Moll: Gas and time and temperature.
Don Wittman: And I think the whole thing was that we donít open it expressly by allowing price changeable signs, because then youíre in the slippery slope.† However if you do it on a case by case variance basis, now you have the threshold.† Now you make them come in and show why they need a variance.
Mayor Moll:† And thatís what I heard from you when we talked about it back then, you said, I donít really have a huge problem with this, but Iíd like to review every one of them in the variance process, and here we are.
Bill Sasse made a motion to adjourn, seconded by Scott Rowley.† ROLL CALL:† Scott Daffron, yes; Jim Chubb, yes; Scott Rowley, yes; Bill Sasse, yes.† MOTION APPROVED
Meeting Adjourned: †_7:45 p.m.
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